ПМВ. Германские амбиции.

[bash_m_ak]

Русская википедия меня периодически удивляет: как-то смотрел статью по Русско-Японской войне на русском и на японском языках - цифры потерь там существенно отличаются, причем не в самую логичную сторону. Сегодня смотрел статью "Septemberprogramm" про немецкое видение мироустройства после того как они "быстренько всех раскатают" в ПМВ. Статья есть на немецком (понятно почему -  Fritz Fischer, который ввел эти данные в оборот - немецкий историк), английском, французском, итальянском, сербском языках, но не на русском. Страно, никому не интересно какие части немцы хотели отрезать от России и ради чего, собственно, нам пришлось воевать?
Так что кину сюда несколько карт, показывающих что именно хотели немцы.
Предвоенные ожидания послевоенного мира.



Провоевав год, планы изменились

Планы 1917 года (явно не начала)

Comments

[unknown128.livejournal.com]

Thanks, its good to have this maps here.

The Septemberprogramm is regulary thaught at German schools and often said that ideas of a colonisation and controll over eastern Europe were allready very popular back then.

Its also told that Germany didnt plan to annex many (if any) british colonies )maybe only give some to the Ottomans and a few in Africa), since it was hard to force the UK to a humiliating peace after Germany lost the "Dradnought race" around 1914.

In case of a German victory the main victim would be Russia (from the large) and Belgium and Serbia (from the small countrys). France would lose a few coal rich but small land pieces and some worthless colonies (the Germans of course wouldt take Algeria). In truth Germany wasnt that much after colonies in Africa anyway, only as a sign of prestige.....
Since it was clear that Africa is just too poor to serve as a buyer for german goods.....The main aim were the Balkans that were seen as the greatest potential market for this goods....I think that conquered Russian territorys and a tarif free system with Russia would provide Germany with a far larger market for its goods then all of Africa combined (Russians and Balkan people had similar wealth).

The Middle east was also interesting for Germany but here again the interest was far less in taking colonies from other European powers then in influencing the Ottoman Empire and conquering its markets....

In 1910 Russia allowed the Germans to build their Bahdad railway (whish was a main method of German influence in the area (with a large area around it free for German exploitation Germany build it through very oil-rich territorys)through Russian sphere of influence in Persia to improve relations with Germany....it was of little use in the end, since russian goods took an increasingly large share of the Ottoman and Persian markets, thus forcing the Germans to compete with bouth the British and the Russians for this zone.

[bash-m-ak.livejournal.com]

>France would lose a few coal rich but small land pieces
Есть вот такая карта индустриальных районов Франции
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/british_dominions_yearbook/fr_ind_dist_map6_1918.jpg
да, в территории Франция потеряла бы не так много, а в промпотенциале как бы не половину. Мы кстати тоже в промпотенциале теряли больше, чем в территории.
В этом смысле характерны изменения притязаний 1914 и 1917 годов - босле блокады и черной зимы немцев ресурсы стали интересовать больше промышленности.

[unknown128.livejournal.com]

The only thing in which this maps contradict my knowloge is concerning Belgium.

As far as I know the Germans only wanted to annex the Flämisch parts of Belgium. But maybe since they would have created a puppet state in the rest it would have been theirs de facto anyway.

Its also interesting that Germany was ready to "give" half of Galizia to Russia in exchange for Poland and the Balticum in case of a seperate peace..... Allways nice to be A-H with such "allies".....

All in all the Versail peace was far kinder to Germany then Germany wanted to be to its enemys in case of a victory. The Brest-Litovsk peace confirms that.

[ulmerug.livejournal.com]

Спасибо.

[bash-m-ak.livejournal.com]

пожалуйста

[b-graf.livejournal.com]

Где-то видел мнение, что немецкий план был ответом на объявленный русский (объединить Польшу как независимое государство под русской династией).

[unknown128.livejournal.com]

I heared that while there was a proclamation of Nick.Nick to unite Poland under russian controll, this wasnt official policy. Rather Russian annexion plans 1914 looked very modest (only Memel and Galizia, with almost no german territorys), only later (1916 I think) a more hardened position (including a devision of A-H and a unification of all former Polish lands under Russia), was developed.

I may be wrong though.

[sergei-lvov.livejournal.com]

А откуда карты? В том смысле автор статьи их откуда берет? А то я как-то не слышал, что немцы в 1918 году собирались присоединить все то, что показано на карте 1917 года. Может, там что-то иное имеется ввиду?

[unknown128.livejournal.com]

Spheres of controll are meant.....The UK didnt controll all of India directly too, there were formaly independant principalitys there. Same goes for Russia with Bukhara and Khiva.

But all powers acknowloged this territorys as British/Russian sphere of control. Germany putting a Hohenzoller prince as a king of a puppet state or annexing a territory directly is secondary here.

[athanatoi.livejournal.com]

красота. хотелку они меж прочти надолго сохранили, еще на 30 лет почти.

[invader-avenger.livejournal.com]

У них еще все впереди.